I’ve been reading the New Testament over the past month and have been pleasantly thrilled by one thing that I’d never before noticed or fully understood.
Jesus was famous. If you don’t believe me, read the gospels again.
When you read the book of Mark, especially, it is very clear that this was no ordinary man and people knew it. Crowds gathered around houses to hear him speak, the sick and lame were lined up in the streets to be healed by him, and people gathered by the thousands to hear him speak. It’s incredible to see how many times Mark described in one fashion or another how Jesus was being thronged by the multitudes.
Often we speak of Jesus as an outcast who was “despised and rejected of men”, and while that was the case in some locations like his hometown and Jerusalem, in most places he went, Jesus was the star of the show.
However, Jesus didn’t spend a lot of time in Jerusalem, and that is where he was ultimately sentenced to death and accused of men. In Luke 23 we read the following account:
Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them.
But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
And they were instant [urging] with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.
I was thinking about “loud voices” again recently as I was blown away by some of the responses to Elder Holland’s talk at Brigham Young University. There were SO many loud voices, and they were sharing SO MANY things that Elder Holland did not say. He flat out did not say them.
Take this one for example. This is a screenshot from an Instagram story. A popular ex-Mormon Instagram account stated that Elder Holland said that “over his dead body would he let the church change to accept queer people”. Really? The thing I get a kick out of is the rhetorical question “Over YOUR dead body?” with the emphasis on “YOUR”, as if Elder Holland had actually said any of this.
Another lie the “loud voices” on social media have been spreading is that Elder Holland called for musket fire towards LGBTQ individuals. If you read his speech, he never said anything remotely close to that. The crowds have been massacring that metaphor and applying it to something Elder Holland never intended.
Was it the best metaphor? I don’t know. Then again, I’ve never liked violent metaphors like “It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea…” but that came from Jesus himself, so who am I to correct Jesus or Elder Holland? The fact that these forceful metaphors were used speaks to the seriousness of the issues being discussed.
Fighting Against the Apostles
It dawned on me after reading many of these social media posts from the very loud crowd that so much of the noise was from people who had not actually watched or read Elder Holland’s speech at all. They heard reactions from others, perhaps saw small clips, but surely they didn’t watch the entire forty minute speech he gave, found here.
If they had watched the tears flow from Elder Holland’s eyes, they certainly wouldn’t have cast stones at that man as many have. I can’t tell you how many comments I read from people asking, “What did he say?”, then reacting emotionally after they were given an explanation from someone that was 280 characters or less. Basing your reactions on other people’s reactions without having full information is a dangerous course to take.
As I thought about this, the thought came to my mind that this was probably a very similar scenario to Christ’s presentation before Pilate.
I would bet that the majority of the people chanting “Crucify him, crucify him” to Pilate’s question, “What evil hath he done?” had never actually taken the time to honestly listen to Jesus’ full message. Their reactions and calls for death were solely because of the noise of the crowd, and this alone made them more than eager to cast stones at Jesus.
A brother online posted a screenshot of the following scripture found in 1 Nephi 11, explaining that his wife was praying to know what to think about the Elder Holland speech and reaction and this was the scripture she opened up to:
And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.
And after he was slain I saw the multitudes of the earth, that they were gathered together to fight against the apostles of the Lamb; for thus were the twelve called by the angel of the Lord.
And the multitude of the earth was gathered together; and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Behold the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
We are now seeing members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints openly fight against an apostle of the Lamb. These are members in your neighborhoods, members in your ward, members who sit next to you in sacrament meeting. It’s incredibly sad to see.
Just as a small group of Pharisees and corrupt rulers stirred up a crowd to call for the crucifixion of Jesus, similar antics are at play with the venomous reaction to Elder Holland’s words spoken on BYU campus.
Where Do You Stand and Who Do You Sustain
There appears to be an ever increasing divide in the church over many issues. Please ask yourself this question as you consider where you stand: If your stance is in opposition to the living prophets and apostles, can you really be on solid ground? The first section of the Doctrine and Covenants declares:
Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh;
And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth.
And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth fold and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
I would invite you to follow the counsel of and sustain our living prophets and apostles. They are seers and can see what we cannot. They are witnesses of the Lord Jesus Christ. They are here to speak truth, and not pleasing words.
Please listen to the words of the prophets with a humble heart before you listen to the noise of the social media crowds – even the noise from so-called “temple-going, Relief Society President, Instagram Influencers.” Please listen to the prophets words and ask, “Lord, is it I?” Please listen to their words without expecting to have your belly rubbed and to have everything be pleasing. The truth isn’t always comfortable.
If the crowd in Jerusalem would have received the words of Christ with a humble heart, blood wouldn’t be on their hands.
@Britt, Isaiah 5:20, “Wo unto them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!”
Moroni 10:19, “[God] is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”
The apostles are special witnesses of Christ, and they have never spoken for themselves in Conference or whenever testifying of Christ. The Lord has declared that he “cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.” (Doctrine and Covenants 1:31) His eternal laws and commandments are infinitely greater than ANYTHING man thinks is right. The church is not wrong, YOU are wrong for believing that the Lord will make an exception to sin, and YOU are wrong for assuming that the Lord will exclude LGBTQ brothers and sisters. He loves them all perfectly, and He also invites them to put away the natural man and follow Him.
YOU were too busy being offended by every single detail that you completely ignored the Spirit. Listen to the words of living prophets, for they will not lead you astray. This is not the work of man, it is the work of the Lord, and HE NEVER WAVERS TO MAN.
@Ryan, Doctrine and Covenants 1:38, “Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.”
And Doctrine and Covenants 1:31, “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.”
The Prophets and Apostles are the servants of the Lord. Whenever they speak, it is not they who are speaking. Rather, it is the Lord himself, and who are we to dispute with the Lord?
@Steven, this needed to be said. Thank you for speaking common sense to an apologist who believes church leaders are infallible.
@Steven, great response. Thanks for speaking up.
@Ben Arkell, I agree.
Dear Ben , This is a brilliant and sensitively written article. I appreciate your insights and your spirit. Many will not understand or hear the truths Elder Holland spoke. Sad. Especially this “We have to be careful hat love and empathy do not be interpreted as condoning and advocacy. . . .Christ never once with held His love from anyone. He also never said “Because I love you, you are exempt from keeping my commandments.”
Hey Ben, I watched the entire talk a few times. I love Elder Holland. At least one of his talks has been pivotal in my life. I recognize his authority as a profit of God.
But…
He is also a man and his message to BYU faculty (and the world… he was well aware that the world was his audience) had a lot of his trademark rhetoric (crescendos of righteous anger and quivering jowls, followed by soft humility and tears of empathy, repeat), but little of the spirit along with some half-truths. It was Jeffrey Holland the man doing most of the speaking this time. Here are a few of the things Jeffrey Holland said:
1. His statement about the BYU graduation speech was not true. You have loosely agreed, but you point out that it wasn’t the right place for this student to “come out” and that Holland was shaming the faculty for letting it happen, not the student. Why? Is it wrong for him to be gay? The Church, including Elder Holland, has indicated that being gay is not a sin and that there is no shame in “coming out.” Was it wrong to include an experience core to who he is and core to what he has learned while in college? Certainly not–it’s almost a cliche in graduation speeches. If he had talked about finding the (female) love of his life and marrying her while at BYU, would there be ANY outrage? Would anyone call it the wrong place for such an anecdote? No. On the contrary, stories about finding companions at BYU are also a cliche of talks in wards, stakes and at general conference.
2. The first time Holland shed tears for his gay brothers and sisters it was touching. At this point, though, it feels like it’s become part of his schtick (he IS a master of rhetoric… or more precisely, a doctor of rhetoric). This time he even claimed to be scarred by the pain of his gay brothers and sisters. Perhaps you hear this and see a man with incredible empathy. Let me help you see it from a different perspective. My 14 year old daughter tried to end her life, in part because of her sexuality. I lived most of my life wishing I were dead rather than feeling an attraction to other men. The church has even suggested in the past that it would be better for my daughter and I to BE dead rather than give in to our desire to love and be loved by another human. Now, pretend that’s you and your daughter and consider how you would feel about Holland’s rhetoric. You might think, “Hey Holland, enough of the performative empathy. You are a prophet. We don’t need the burden of your metaphorical scars and tears, we need your guidance. And if you have none (the Church’s current position on LGBTQ folks is “we don’t know why you are this way, but just hold on”), then please hold your tears and your tongue and let us work through our faith without also dodging your musket fire.”
3. Holland relayed a complaint from a parent who was concerned that her child might be exposed to acceptance of gay people while at BYU. He used that parent complaint to beat up on BYU faculty. I am a teacher. A decent school administrator would NEVER do this. Never. And a good administrator would have even invited the mother to enroll her child somewhere else. And this is a university. Presumably most students at BYU are adults. That a mother would write this letter says more about the mother than it says about BYU faculty. And Holland’s reaction says more about his nostalgia for BYU than it says about BYU faculty. The only thing that speaks loudly of BYU faculty is that none of them got up and walked out at that point.
To be clear, these three moments (and others in the speech) don’t make me believe any less that Elder Holland is a prophet. Instead they confirm how important it is for me to seek confirmation of the spirit when I listen to our prophets speak. In this case, there was none. It doesn’t make him less of a prophet; it makes him more human.
I realize you (like many of our LDS brothers and sisters) will tell me that Holland’s words might hurt, but he is teaching and defending God’s law, and God’s laws don’t change. To that, I will suggest a few examples where God’s law didn’t change, but where man’s understanding of God’s law changed dramatically. 1. Read the conversation between Moroni and his father about baptism at the end of the BofM. God not only set them straight on baptizing children, he let them know that their misunderstanding showed a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of God. 2. Study the “law” of celestial marriage in the church. My mom was a polygamist who married a Mormon who believed in marriage between one man and one woman. Her family loved her but was sad that she would choose a lifestyle/marriage that would keep her out of the celestial kingdom. This was the common understanding of teachings in the D&C prior to the 1890s. 3. Study the “law” that kept Black Mormons from receiving the priesthood and related temple covenants. You might say, “sure, but that was a policy change, not a change of the law.” That’s not how BY saw it, or more recently, it’s not how Elder McConkie saw it (with many prophets between the two who concurred).
There may be a day when we look back on the Church’s “policy” of not allowing gay members to fully participate in the temple and feel relieved that things have changed. It might even strengthen our faith in living prophets and in revelation. In fact, I have hope in that day. And I have hope that when it comes, those in the Church who now insist it is God’s unchangeable law will have the grace that McConkie had when the law as he knew it changed (literally) overnight.
I don’t think we need to march to Elder Holland’s house and lynch him. But I also don’t think we need to defend his mistakes and imply that those he hurt just didn’t understand his intentions or don’t understand the gospel. Ben, it’s okay that Holland gave a crappy speech where he got lost in his own gift of rhetoric and his nostalgia for the BYU of yesteryear. He’s still a prophet. He doesn’t need you to defend him. You know who might need your empathy and your defense? 12 year old girls (and boys) who think they are monsters. I’m pretty sure Christ has more concern for the actual scars those kids are bearing than Holland’s metaphorical scars.
And yeah, this is a really late response to your thoughts. Haha. Though we might disagree on things, I appreciate that you’ve created a forum for talking about the Gospel.
The King James Version
@Ben Arkell, what bible is you reading
@Rozy, ❤️❤️❤️
@Grandpa Chet, great wisdom in your words! ❤️
@Carl M., ❤️❤️❤️Thank you for your honest reply
@Alan Wild, 👍thank You
@Peggy Bogar, 👍
@Bonnie, ❤️❤️❤️
@Carol Lynn Whitaker, thank you. So we’ll said!
@Kim C., 👍
@Jedd, 👍
@jojo, many people who don’t find love or have the chance to get married live lives with no intimacy or love for a spouse. LGBTQ are not alone in this. Who knows why this is some’s cross to bear. It IS heartbreaking for everyone but the commandments are there and it’s up to us how we follow them. Elder Holland was heartbroken at the pain you and others go thru. Others lose children to cancer or unimaginable horrors. Is this fair or any less painful? Of course not. No ones burdens are “fair” or easy for them. Your real problem is that the church won’t change their or Gods stand on homosexuality in practice. I’m so sorry for your burden but you and the LGBTQ community are not the only ones to suffer in life. Life is hard. No one ever said it’d be easy. Sorry
@Ben Arkell, 👍
@True Christians follow Christ, no you missed the point. You’re to busy being offended by the topic and that the church cannot condone homosexuality, you entirely missed the point of being kind and loving everyone no matter their acts. Elder Holland doesn’t have an unkind bone in his body.
Good article thanks
@Alan,
Thanks for citing these verses, Alan. The current, true prophet of God has been leading us for years to hear Him (Jesus Christ) more than ever before. Many have followed that counsel. It is heart breaking to see that many have not. When Christ closes the door, and the 5 are not allowed in, some of them will surely cry out that he is harsh, hurtful, and divisive, but the door will still remain closed. Those who say these things against an apostle of the Lamb are built on foundations of sand.
Laurel,
Thank you for your wonderful comment. It was beautifully put.
The one thing I would add however, is that just because a comment from a church leader caused harm, doesn’t mean they were mistakes – especially if it were “unintended harm” as you stated.
When Jesus cleansed the temple he caused physical harm to peoples’ goods and I’m sure some were emotionally hurt by his actions, but does that mean what He did was a mistake?
If something coming from the church is hurtful, our first inclination should be to look inward and reflect on why it is causing us pain – and seek, as you said, to have all pride removed.
@Martha,
Please do not allow anyone to shame you for recognizing when something said or done in the church is hurtful/harmful.
You can both sustain church leaders and recognize/be saddened when they miss the mark.
To quote one of our own leaders on this topic : “We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of church history — along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable and divine events — there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.”
“To be perfectly frank,” Uchtdorf said, “there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine.”
God is perfect and his doctrine is pure, he said, but human beings — including church leaders — are not.
I love and sustain Elder Holland. I also see the unintended harm in things he said in this recent address. Leaders have made mistakes before, they still do now, and they will continue to do so until Christ comes.
I know God loves his children and things will be made right. We all need to continually search our hearts and ask to have all pride removed- allow Him to speak His truth to you.
Thank you , Ben! :-)
@Monica,
His facts are straight. He is not spewing hatred of truth, he is stating facts. What exactly do you think is false?
Christ was not crucified for preaching love and acceptance. He was crucified for teaching truth.
This article touches on the reactions of the crowds who never really heard the true message.
If you think Holland was scolding people for showing love, you missed the point of what he was saying.
He wants more love and more truth.
Christ was crucified for SHOWING AND PREACHING LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE. Not for scolding people for showing love and acceptance, which is what Elder Holland did. Holland is not being crucified. He is being held accountable for his words and their consequences. This article gets it wrong on so many levels.
Did you watch his speech? Does this sound like alienation?
“In that spirit, let me go no farther before declaring unequivocally my love and that of my Brethren for those who live with this same-sex challenge and so much complexity that goes with it. Too often the world has been unkind, in many instances crushingly cruel, to these our brothers and sisters. Like many of you, we have spent hours with them, and wept and prayed and wept again in an effort to offer love and hope while keeping the gospel strong and the obedience to commandments evident in every individual life.”
I am not fighting against an “apostle of the Lamb.” I am stating that a true follower of Jesus Christ would not alienate others against His children. A true follower of Christ would not be so homesick for the all-white, all-straight ivory tower of his youth that he would cry out for muskets to protect it while building a wall around it to keep out aliens. There are no aliens to Christ. All are his beloved siblings and all are welcomed by him. A person speaking as a true apostle would know that.
“To expect anyone to live an entire life of loneliness, no family, no intimacy, no emotional relationships, this does not bring happiness this is not joy.” – I don’t agree with this statement. To assume that someone who abstains from sexual activity with someone of their same sex has no family, no emotional relationships, and a life of loneliness is not true.
I know many LGBTQ who keep their covenants, have family and friends that love and support them, have emotional connection with ward members, fellow LGBTQ, and associates. They have happiness.
Do they have everything they way they want? I’m not pretending that. But we all have to make sacrifices to keep covenants. There is not any person on this earth that has everything they want.
Do I want the LGBTQ community and their families to leave the church? Absolutely not.
And I have not felt the things you are describing, but the Savior has. And I know MANY (Dennis, Patrick, Sky, Preston) to name a few who are navigating this mortal experience yoked with the Savior and their temple covenants, while living with same-sex attraction.
If you would like me to put you in touch with someone who can better help, I would highly recommend you reach out to Dennis Schleicher on Instagram and read his book, “Is He Nuts?: Why a Gay Man Would Become a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ.”
Thanks for your important comment.
@Ben Arkell, So Ben, do you think that the LGBTQ+ community and their families should leave the church? If you are thinking that time will tell and nothing will change…..Where does the LGBTQ+ community fit into Heavenly Fathers Perfect Plan? Because let me tell you from personal experience, the cognitive dissonance, heartache, confusion, depression, etc. is pretty horrible to live through. To expect anyone to live an entire life of loneliness, no family, no intimacy, no emotional relationships, this does not bring happiness this is not joy. Apostles get remarried after a spouse dies, because they don’t want to live alone. Can you imagine your entire mortal experience without a partner? The church has acknowledged that our LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters are indeed born this way. If they are in fact born this way, do you think our Heavenly Parents want them to be alone? This is tough, sensitive, complicated and an extremely emotional topic for those of us who are and have been living through this. Have you held a child in your arms as they sobbed and cried and begged to just die? They are so confused and can find no peace in the Mormon church. They are not, nor ever will be able to participate in the temple or baptism, or any of the sacred covenants that the rest are apart of, unless they live alone. Only continual hurt. I understand there are those like Charlie Bird that are the exception to the rule. I admire him and those like him with all of my heart. But for so many, they don’t have that caliber of strength or support group or notoriety. They are trying to do this alone, not with a fan club. I ask this sincerely. I am not trying to be mean. Please, tell us what the families and LGBTQ+ should do to find joy and happiness in this life? Not the next one. Right now, today, tomorrow and mortality?
@Bruce Berkheimer,
@Ben Arkell,
Ben I am so glad you wrote this article! Thank you! I also am saddened by the “friendly fire” going on among all of us. There is so much division in the world already. Can we not set our differences aside and love each other. Service is the key I believe. President Holland is an Apostle of God and I will go to my grave defending him. This reminded me of Samuel on the wall and people shooting arrows at him. All of us should do a spiritual health check more frequently. Satan wants to destroy relationships, testimonies, and the family. He will weasel his way into any little crack we have in our mortal weakness. Ask yourself how you can heal and improve those cracks we have. Are you shooting the arrows or are you shielding and defending against those arrows? God loves us so he chasten’s us. There is doctrine and there is policy. Doctrine will never change. The Gospel is perfect, but man is not. Thank heavens we have an older Brother who died for us and IS perfect. He will mend all hearts and heal all those who humble themselves and come unto Him. Please do not lose faith in Him.
Pharisees were not part of God’s established Church. Jesus can to establish the true church and tear down false traditions and practices. Holland is one of God’s spokesman. He is not a Pharisee.
It’s very ironic that you brought up the fact that it wasn’t the loud voices of the people that was the problem. It was the Pharisees, and the equal authority comparison would be Holland, not the crowd listening to him.
The comparison was between the crowds and those making loud noises. I think it was a very appropriate comparison.
“The church will someday realize they are wrong about LGBTQ stuff.” Time will tell.
You should watch it and not read it. I think you would feel differently if you did so. Elder Renlund said the same. You need to watch his speech.
I think a rainbow flag is considered divisive by many, especially when you take a symbol that God has used for thousands of years and make it a symbol for your own agenda. (And while some may say that agenda is love, when you attend a gay pride parade, love is not the only agenda being projected)
He made no call for faculty to stop supporting LGBTQ students. He made a call for them to love them as the Savior would.
His issue with Matty Easton, whom he never mentioned by name, was that his coming out was not done in the appropriate setting, and his bigger issue was that the faculty, whom he was speaking to, allowed it.
When you call a prophet of the Lord’s speech “cruel, mean, and petty” and I would that would cause you to really look deep inside your heart.
A prophet is a prophet when you agree with him and when you don’t agree with him.
The implication was that a graduation speech is not the place to come out when you are representing the university. Remember the audience he was speaking to. He was speaking to the faculty, the Dean included. It was a call to them to ensure that the things spoken at the pulpit of a graduation ceremony were appropriate for that setting.
I don’t think professors should be flying rainbow flags. I think professors should love everyone, no flag waving needed. Why not have a BLM flag too? And a “stop Asian-hate” flag? And a “I accept those who identify as a cat flag”. (a friend attends a school that has at least two who identify as cats and come to class with cat ears and tails and meow during class) At some point the “ites” and labels get out of hand.
No one should need to wave a flag to prove they are a safe space. BYU should be a safe space, where people can feel accepted and supported as they seek to living God’s commandments.
@Ben Arkell,
Yes, yes and yes. 👍
@Britt,
Whataboutism!! “But what about B. Y. And J. S.”
This is about Elder Holland. An apostle of Jesus Christ that does speak for him.
Being born with it doesn’t mean one is exempt from keeping the commandments.
The comparison of Holland to Christ is disgusting. I’m tired of people outsourcing their moral compass to church leadership. Apostles have been 100% wrong about issues in the past. Their morality isn’t special or even better than average in my opinion. Brigham Young had slaves for examples and was frankly racist with the priesthood ban and temple ban on black people. Joseph Smith lied to Emma about polygamy and also had child brides. Benson was a political nut case, who thought that the civil rights movement was wrong, the list could go on and on…
The church will someday realize they are wrong about LGBTQ stuff, they already moved from it being something that people pervertedly choose to something they are born with.
Holland’s crying bothered me personally, I don’t see it the same way you do Ben.
I read the speech several times. It was a call to defend the doctrine that is harmful to gay members. It was a call to be aggressive against accepting LGBTQ students and members. It called gay symbols divisive. (How is a rainbow divisive?)
It was an unsubtle call for faculty members to stop openly supporting gay students. Chilling. It was, essentially, a call for LGBTQ students and members to stay in the closet. It was planting a flag.
He also publicly humiliated a former gay student for saying he is gay. There is no justification for hurting this person this way. None.
Elder Holland is revered and loved by members, including me. But this speech broke my heart. It was cruel, mean, petty. Totally uncharacteristic of the man he is. There’s not doubt about that.
What bothered me about Holland’s talk is when he singled out the BYU grad who said he was gay in his speech. This young man’s speech was wonderful and had prior approval from the Dean. The implication from Elder Holland’s words is that people at BYU shouldn’t be coming out, they professors shouldn’t be flying rainbow flags, which publicly indicate they love students who are LGBTQ. That is what is hurtful, and I notice you don’t address either of those points in your post.
I actually haven’t seen what this author claims by church members in the LBGTQ+ community. There might have been a little disappointment that there wasn’t a different metaphor used or that more belonging language wasn’t used in the speech, but really nothing changed from what was already known. I don’t think the brethren like being compared to Christ like this, but since the author did, I’d say it’s more compatible with President Nelson’s request for members to get vaccinated. This is where more members are rejecting the prophet.
“Let’s start with the fact that Jesus was crucified by the religious leaders of His time because he was not legalistic enough!”- Are you implying that a prophet of God who upholds God’s definition of marriage is being legalistic?
“He abolished the “letter of the law” and taught love, forgiveness and mercy.” That’s not all he taught, though he did teach those things. He also said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
“Jesus Christ took on all of our sins – we just need to believe in Him because we will never live a sinless life. Not me, not you, not Mr. Holland.” – That’s not the full doctrine of Christ. BECAUSE we have sinned, we must repent and come unto Christ.
“Let’s finish with the fact that comparing J. Holland’s plight to the crucifixion of the Lord is sad and even sickening.” I compared the reaction of the crowds – and I think it is a very good comparison.
Any member that was discouraged by Elder Holland’s remarks are also discouraged by other things in the church, if you are looking for a way out you will find it!
@Carl M., Yours is the one comment of all the comments that to me is most meaningful and most valid. Thanks for the grace you have displayed in sharing your thoughts.
Oh the irony of this article! Where can I begin? Let’s start with the fact that Jesus was crucified by the religious leaders of His time because he was not legalistic enough! He abolished the “letter of the law” and taught love, forgiveness and mercy. Jesus Christ took on all of our sins – we just need to believe in Him because we will never live a sinless life. Not me, not you, not Mr. Holland.
Let’s finish with the fact that comparing J. Holland’s plight to the crucifixion of the Lord is sad and even sickening. Don’t- just don’t!
You quoted some wonderful scriptures in relation to Elder Holland’s amazing talk. I have another which I think is even more relevant. We are indeed seeing a divide in the Church and, here, the Lord forecast it….upon my house shall it (the division and tribulation) begin.
23 Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. (D&C 112)
@Leeanne, there are a couple things erroneous about these words. 1.) He said to use the metaphorical “musket fire” not against the LGBTQ+ community, but against those who have been advocating for things that contradict Church doctrine. The doctrine he focused a lot about was the doctrine on the family, marriage between a man and a woman, and acting on non-heteronormative feelings. 2.) You bring up an interesting point that it’s hard to conceptualize this sort of thing if you’re not part of the community affected. This idea is echoed a lot, and it doesn’t consider certain Gospel truths: there is One who does understand because He has gone through everything anyone will have ever gone through. That is Jesus Christ through the Atonement. Because of that, He perfectly understands and knows how to counsel and help people going through those things. How does He counsel them? If it’s something that is a universal truth geared toward the whole Church, He speaks through His mouthpieces, the prophets. So while Elder Holland himself may not know what the LGBTQ+ community has been going through, Christ has and can use Elder Holland to communicate what they need to know.
It is hard to conceptualize the impact that his statement had on the LGBTQ+ community at BYU if you aren’t part of it. I am not, so I know that my explanation will be lacking somewhat, but I wanted to participate in the conversation. Elder Holland’s talk was well meaning, I know that. I could hear the emotion in his voice when I listened to it. However, he made several statements that we very hurtful. Many of these were expected because we all know the Church’s stance on gender, dating, and marriage. However, his metaphor of musketfire was the most hurtful and dangerous part – and was wholly unexpected. Leaders of the church have anyways preached love to all individuals, even those deemed as sinners, just like Jesus did. While he called for more musketfire in defence of the proclamation, it was in the context of calling out professors for supporting LGBTQ+ students. This means that the musketfire he was referring to was to be pointed at students not living the proclamation.
As I said, it’s hard to conceptualize this sort of thing if you aren’t in the marginalized group and don’t face Constance hate, death threats, and actually physical attacks. However, I would like you to imagine that President Biden asked for more musketfire against the Mormons. Imagine the fear that would illicit. Imagine how up in ours we, as members, would get. Imagine the additional hate and verbal affronts we would face. Now consider the fact that even then, we as members have not been hunted and killed in nearly 200 years, but just a week before this talk was given, a lesbian couple was KILLED IN UTAH. that changes things. I know Elder Holland’s intent was good, but his metaphor was dangerous. Very, literally dangerous. We have radical and dangerous groups in Utah that will interpret that metaphor as a call to action.
With that context in mind, it shouldn’t be hard to see how him stating that he cries over the experience of LGBTQ+ members fell on deaf ears when stated in the same talk that called for musketfire.
As a final note: I still love and sustain the prophets and apostles of the church, including Elder Holland. But I also know that he (and all of them) are imperfect and that he hurt a lot of people and that their pain is real.
Thank you for putting it the way it is. Love it.
@Rozy, thank you for your perfect words!
@Monica, I like Elder Hollands talk too and he always shows his love for others and his feeling of sadness for those who are mistreated in any way. We also need to remember that some have mental health problems and it doesn’t matter what we say or do they will hang onto false ideas. I have believed untrue things when paranoid but thankfully come to realise my episodes were not reality just my perception of reality at that time of stress. I am not sure if this is the case for John but I am sure you are standing up for truth.
@John, Sorry for your pain and your misunderstanding of a great leader and beloved apostle of the Lord. Elder Holland is a disciple of Christ, a servant of Christ, a friend of Christ and a son of Christ and YOU John are a son of God the Most High, live up to your potential. The Church leaders are bending over backwards to be inclusive and kind to the LGBTQ+ community and have made great strides to show respect for them They have had resources available and love all of God’s children so how about taking a breath and reading your scriptures and becoming Christlike and reaching out in love to your brother Elder Holland, who reached out to you first, in love.
Wonderful to have seen and heard talk for myself and what a load of rot some are throwing at Elder Holland but the Lord will fight our battles and I pray for our beloved Elder Holland and love how you have compared him to Christ’s situation-that will draw many to reflect and hopefully repent. Elder Holland is so compassionate and outreaching. I love him.
@John, gets your facts straight! Your misstatements belie your hatred of the truth. The adversary is leading you by your very willing hand.
@Rozy, thank you for those scriptures. You truly know how to liken the scriptures to us. Elder Holland is a true apostle of Jesus Christ and he speaks the truth with clarity power and love.
Oh spot on! When one takes anything out of context it loses its full meaning. I did listen and watched the video of Elder Holland’s talk and read it simultaneously. I stopped the audio when I wanted to go back to something he said and I wanted clarity. I neither heard nor read ANYTHING that indicated anything but love either his personal love and empathy AND that of the Lord Jesus Christ whom he represents. His body language, his tears, the tone of his voice made it VERY CLEAR what his words alone could not convey. We are in perilous times when individual children of God are embroiled in very deep and complex problems. It has always been difficult to remove the individual from their actions and love them in spite of. However the Lord is very clear about sin, his LOVE IS ALWAYS THERE but that doesn’t mean that the actions are condoned. We are too much of an either/or society and the Lord’s ways are difficult to comprehend from that lens. We can be loved individually as the Lord does AND lovingly told to repent, to change, turn away from unacceptable actions/choices. Commandments are given for the benefit of all, for our greatest being. Elder Holland was talking to all of us and treating us like adults that can avail ourselves of understanding and knowledge through the Holy Ghost.
1. The article never said he was
2. The article never said that
3. “Demonize and marginalize the LGBT community” are buzz-phrases and not based in fact. Show me one thing in his speech that does that.
4. We’ll see
Thanks for reading the article and for sharing your comments.
A true apostle of our God. A humble loving servant to us all God bless him 🙏
I think the comparison of the Jew’s reactions (to Jesus) to the vitriol I’ve seen among friends/former friends (toward a loving, gentle apostle speaking truth) is a very good one…never did I truly understand the meaning of “philosophies of men mingled with scripture” until now, I think. Hearts are waxing cold. It has been heartbreaking and made me cry.
Christ never asks more of us than we can do with His help! May we keep the faith in Him…thank you for your thoughts.
@Bradley Charles, I totally agree with your feelings and sentiments regarding President Nelson. PS did you serve in Russia?
@John, Not Christ? No but as apostle who has not long to live, he know Christ more than you ever will. He was not demonizing the LGBT community, he was gently saying that is not the way and that BYU needs to push back against the surge of the left on campus. And he is right.
1. Holland is not Jesus.
2. Anyone who disagrees with him is not a Pharisee.
3. This is preaching-to-the-choir victimhood because senior leaders of the church choose to continue to demonize and marginalize the LGBT community.
4. Just like Blacks couldn’t get the Priesthood until Harold B. Lee died, and we didn’t get a non-white apostle until all the apostles under Lee had passed on, so too the church will not change its stance on gay marriage until all the apostles who were part of the drafting of the Proclamation, which started as a legal draft in Hawaii, are gone. Waiting patiently for Pres. Uchtdorf, who could change it as quickly as Nelson changed the word “Mormon” to be a victory for Satan.
I loved Elder Holland’s talk and have been saddened by all the out cries from people who want the Doctrine of Christ changed to suit their moods on any given day liked the world is doing.
I live in the ‘isles of the sea’ and what struck me from this post was the word Relief Society President! I believe the daughters of Eve that have instigated these negative comments against Elder Holland would have disappointed mother Eve, who valued knowledge and truth, and was so perceptive that she was able to pinpoint a holy commandment and separate it from Satan’s lies. Yes, she bit the apple, but it was because she sought knowledge, not because she fell for Satan’s lies. And when Adam chastised her, she was quick to point out that she and him could not be separated because the Lord had commanded them to procreate. So, even in her own journey to seek knowledge, mother Eve solidly knew the difference between God’s voice and Satan’s, and gave each their deserving weight.
The words of the living prophets are scripture.
@Cheryl Nefdt,
The 12 apostles aren’t Jesus but they are revered in the scriptures and just look for all the references where god condemns those who speak out against them.
Both this article and the comments so far (except one, obviously), resonate with me, and reflect my own feelings. None of us can serve two masters.
That’s a good question. I definitely feel like the reaction to Elder Holland’s words has been a lot more vitriolic than those who are against the First Presidency’s urging to be vaccinated. However, in my book, there isn’t a ton of value in having a prophet, seer, and revelator guide us if we only listen to them when it fits our worldview. A prophet is a prophet when he says something I agree with or disagree with. I should follow him as such.
I’m wondering why members are not nearly as upset about how many members responded to the plea of the First Presidency when they strongly urged members to be vaccinated and to wear masks so that we could get the temples fully opened. I had a number of member friends say on my Facebook feed things like, “this isn’t a commandment, right? We won’t lose our temple recommend, right?”. They were looking for ways to justify going against the voice of a prophet! Especially one that is a medical professional that spent his life trying to protect his fellow men.
Carl, thank you so much for sharing your perspective. It’s nice to hear that you received it in the way that Elder Holland intended it to be received.
The comparison was of the two crowds. Very similar in their “loudness.”
I was raised a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I am a gay man, and because of that, I was excommunicated from the church more than 30 years ago. Although I understand they don’t do it quite as readily now, as they did back then, I understand why they did it then, and I have no ill feelings towards the church about that decision. I listened to Elder Holland’s talk and found absolutely nothing offensive towards me, or anyone who identifies as LGBTQ, member and/or nonmember alike. I don’t understand where all of the resentment and “feelings of being offended” are coming from. True, every individual hears things in a different way and very personally, but I just don’t see it. I felt nothing but love from that speech, and, as I always do, from Elder Holland. thank you for this article, and perspective. I hope many will see it, and that it will soften many of those hearts of the people who felt like what he said was in somewhere offensive.
🤮🤮 lets not start comparing men to Jesus now. There is only one savior and Jeffery is not him
@Rozy, thank you for the scriptures to support Elder Holland’s talk.
@Rozy,
Excellent comment.
Oh thank you.Best answer ever.
I am horrified but not surprised by some Church members negative comments and feelings. I have been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for over 50 years. I now see what I have heard many times: the Church will be cleansed from the inside before the world will be. Makes tears come to my eyes. I am a Jewish convert and know that I’ve completed my heritage by accepting the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am so sorry for those who rail against God’s prophets, seers and revelators. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Most of my life, I have realized that evil is not predominant. It’s that evil is LOUDER than good. And evil has much more spare time to tear apart and destroy families, people, and love because the rest of us are just working to feed our families and trying to get along and not bother anyone else.
It makes me wonder just how many of the mob were calling for Jesus to be crucified? It’s not like the people gathered outside Pilate’s place was indicative of the entire population of the Jews, nor even of the people of Jerusalem alone. Ever seen a mob? There’s very little individual thinking going on, and later the individuals have to self-justify their mob mentality – just like today. Social media has taken that human tendency to group-think, the mob mentality, and monetize it.
If there was ever a time that reflects the Book of Mormon, it’s now. Which means that surely our time to experience the joys of 3 Nephi 11 must be just around the corner.
As always, I appreciate your insights and have felt the same way. Reading Abinadi’s boldness in teaching truth in Mosiah this week taught me that the Lord’s doctrines are not meant to be popular, but rather soul-saving. The loudness of the priests convinced two men very differently – Alma was touched by the spirit and unmoved by their voices; Noah was touched by the spirit but allowed the voices of the priests to ultimately make his decision. Popular opinion won out over true undefined doctrine, over a servant of the Lord. I cannot think of a more beloved apostle today whose heart is always seeking to draw those on the margins in and while some friends have felt marginalized by his message, I agree with your opinion that we need to look inward and see that he’s trying to course-correct “doctrines of men mingled with scripture” that has entered one of our learning institutions. As a BYU alum, it saddens me to think not every student would have a faith-promoting experience there like I was fortunate to be able to receive. In the world, but not of the world is a challenge and the vision of the Tree of Life was a great one to use since it was a powerful vision given to two prophets who kept records for our day. They saw it then and saw it fir us – believers who succumbed to Satan’s subtle at first messages to arrest from the scriptures and pure, undefined doctrine, to a doctrine/philosophy that feels more inclusive and comfortable. Yet not taught by any of God’s servants. No wonder Jonah didn’t want to preach to the wicked. Changing the hearts of men is hard! But Enoch did it masterfully and raised up a Zion people. That’s the end goal, to purify our hearts, our thinking, and our behavior into a celestial life. It takes discomfort and getting out of the easy into the higher law living to achieve this goal. Thank you for your message and for the powerful analogy to Christ’s experience. Even He, the Greatest of all was rejected for his boldness in teaching the hard yet soul saving doctrines. The War in heaven was real and of course will continue today. It’s palpable in watching members who are struggling with hard truths. Christ’s invitation to Come Unto Me isn’t just a physical one, but one of aligning our thinking with His. Staying in the scriptures allows us to understand the beauty of this invitation and to always hear His voice over the tumult of the crowd. God bless!
Thank you for those insights. I have yet to read Elder Holland’s talk. I live far away from ( any Stake) of Zion. What a blessing it is to believe and follow our living prophets.
Everything you wrote comes across good and right and true !
I thought of different scriptures as I listened to Elder Holland’s entire talk, and the ensuing aftermath. 1 Nephi 8:37 – “And he did exhort them then with all the feeling of a tender parent . . .” Then 2 Nephi 1:26 – “And ye have murmured because he hath been plain unto you. Ye say that he hath been angry with you; but behold his sharpness was the sharpness of the power of the word of God, which was in him; and that which ye call anger [or bigotry, racism, sexism, or phobias] was the truth, according to that which is in God, which he could not restrain, manifesting boldly concerning your iniquities.” And 2 Nephi 9:40 “. . . Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.” And finally, Mosiah 13:7-8 – “. . . Yea and I perceive that it cuts you to your hearts because I tell you the truth concerning your iniquities. Yea, and my words fill you with wonder and amazement, and with anger.” Paul expressed a similar sentiment in Galatians 4:16 – “Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?”
You are correct; so many have entered the great and spacious building, not wanting to be different from the academics of the world. Instead of keeping their burdens and weaknesses to themselves while striving to live the commandments, they broadcast their sins to the world and expect to be praised for living true to themselves. (I thought we were supposed to overcome the “natural man/woman” and become pure through the atonement of Christ!)
Elder Holland called us to repentance in the most kind, gentle and loving way he could as an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. He knows that keeping the commandments is difficult; he knows how hard satan and his legions work to drag us down. But he also knows that the reward for obedience and pressing forward with steadfastness in Christ is worth all the difficulties, pain and suffering. We are so blessed to have prophets and apostles to guide us!
Great words. It is a “loud time”. Makes my hart sad. Elder Holland’s talk was for those who have ears to hear. Humble hearts will RE joy ace. Thank you for your great words of truth.
When I compare the love and compassion that emanates from Elder Holland to the hate and venom displayed in some of those negative reactions, my testimony that he is truly an apostle of the Lord only increases. We have been warned that in the last days the sheep will be separated from the goats. It seems to me that the separation has already started. This article has touched my heart.